i still cant master the cheeses...im starting to get frusturated now and i decided to move onto swisses, cant get those. grrr can someone help me with either of the 2 hybrids so i can get them past around 80-90 BPM.

I already talked to you about it in the other thread, but you have got to be more specific!! Tell us what's wrong with your cheeses.

I'll answer you here since the other thread is digital's. I would recommend you break down what each hand is doing. So for cheeses, you've got an accented diddle, and then a triple stroke. Work that on each hand, and work on speeding the tempo up for the one hand part. Then when you feel confident playing each hand separately, put them together. As for swisses, you're really only playing a double stroke on each hand. You say you're having trouble getting the flam down... not really sure what that means. But I would practice the control of playing a double stroke with an accent followed by a tap. It's all about playing from the accent height and then stopping the stick on the rebound at the tap height. Do it all slowly and then work up speed, but recognize that you'll have to change your approach slightly as the tempo speeds up.

I think the problem is more mental than chops. I mean all a cheese is, is a accented diddle. You just happen to throw in a grace note. But i agree w/ dredpir8roberts, use a rudiment builder type exercise and break it down in to each of its parts an work that until you get the desired quality of cheeses

yea, i do think it is more menatl because when you break it down it is much more simple. this will help a lot because i know i can play fast doubles so that is true swisses arent that complex and cheeses are just a diddle with a grace note. that helpa a bunch. thanks.

if you play them slow enough with a sort of "loose flopy" feel to them youre actually learning the technique for faster tempos. personally for me they just clicked after a while...there was no exercise that helped me just after a while they sounded good and didnt feel wierd to play

When I learned cheeses (and flam 3's, 4's, etc.) I played Sanford Double Beat and added a grace note on the first note of each set of notes, essentially playing just cheeses (or 3's, 4's, etc.). Once you get comfortable with the feeling/ motion of cheeses, play them on the downbeat of a set of 16ths (Freytag version of applying a cheese) or downbeat of triplets (cheeselets). Spend most of your time playing the 16th version off of your weak hand (usually left) in order to improve that hand's cheeses because they will be noticeably weaker at first. THEN use all of the above exercises and "the grid"/ 4-2-1 to gain more experience with them and to apply them.

(NOTE: the flammed-double-beat exercise is original, but was inspired by a section of my High School's book last year)