So, since the first day of band camp, most of the line, with the exception of about4-5 people, have been working on a cadence one of the tenor players made up, but the band director goes ballistic every time they try and practice/play it, Especially this morning, when it was the first time they got to practice with their instrument in a non-required practice, where they just practice music and stuff. (you know the band room in the morning before school.) He yelled at them to stop playing what he did not give them to play, and they were playing quietly for a morning session. "Practice the material I gave you or get out. You can practice that... at home, but not here." They were practicing it during lunch break in band camp, but then when the entire line started playing it goin to the practice field, they had to stay after and run laps on the last dya of the first week of camp.

I'm not saying that I don't think the band director is right about what he does, and I cannot object to it, but that the drumline could at least have a part in writing a cadence or something. They need a little more freedom than just to play whatever the bd gives them. The parts the have of it sounds really good, but nooooooo, they aren't allowed to play it.

Do the students in your line have drum corps experience? Instructional experience? A music degree?

I think we'll say no, so they have no idea of the director's intent.

Is their show perfect? Are they performing now at an end of season or higher level?

I think we shall say no to that as well, so there's no reason to practice material that doesn't relate to what you're given for the show.

There are two reasons.

My 2 cents, (usual caveat that we're only hearing one side)

I agree with the BD that this is not something to work on during normal practice time, even during a lunch break (at least, not with instruments on.) Some of this is probably a general "keeping order" thing -- the situation can quickly slip into chaos. I don't know what the your BD's policies are on the apparent morning "open practice" time -- you may just want to talk to him about arranging some time to hold extra practices just to work on cadences, etc.

I expect that his intent isn't to stifle your creativity, but rather to keep things running smoothly and get you to work on your show material first before you can "play."

Creating your own music can really give kids a feeling of ownership in the band and make the program better; but, you have to get the show music down first: if you can't play what you're *supposed* to be learning don't expect much sympathy when it comes to "extra" activities.

Cadet311:

>>Do the students in your line have drum corps experience? Instructional experience? A music degree?
>>
>>I think we'll say no, so they have no idea of the director's intent.

Perhaps I'm being dense, but I fail to see what this has to do with the subject at all. Sounds rather snobbish, actually.

>>Is their show perfect? Are they performing now at an end of >>season or higher level?

>>I think we shall say no to that as well, so there's no reason >>to practice material that doesn't relate to what you're given >>for the show.

That's much more to the point, and I certainly agree as far as official rehearsal/practice time is concerned. On the other hand there's fun, creative expression, music education...I see no reason to be a robot and practice only the show music 24/7. If they want to hold extra practices to work on other things, as long as the kids aren't sandbagging on the show music I think it's a good thing.

I agree with Cadet311 and will take it way further.

Every program I have taught or performed in (HS, DCI, DCA, WGI) was absolutely ridiculous about their image.

Consider, for one moment, using Cadet311's point that none of these kids have any notable experience, that what they have come up with may not only be outside of their instructional realm or capability, but is embarassing.

If this "piece" was created by a student and has never been practiced before the time the students played it in an open forum (albeit it the practice field, it is still public) it probably sounded less than clean.

From the information provided, the band director is not hindering creativity as the thread title suggests, but rather reminding the students that his rehearsal time is not the appropriate forum for their experiments.

From the other side- Note that there is no mention of any percussion staff. That allows for the existence of boredom and reduced enthusiasm among the membership who most likely haven't seen beats harder than a hal leonard stock chart. Further, the author of the post is not a member of said section, and may not be aware of all the facts, nor their pertinent order.

Well I agree with both points. While the drumline shouldn't be goofing around without having the show down, this is high school - not Drum Corps.

"If this "piece" was created by a student and has never been practiced before the time the students played it in an open forum (albeit it the practice field, it is still public) it probably sounded less than clean." (Snarepaint)

If you were a bd, and your line sucked at the show music, at everything, would you make them run laps or punish them?
They aren't in a professional ensamble and I'm pretty sure that if a trumpet player warmed up on carnival of venice I'm pretty sure it'd be unethical to scold him for being that good.

Of course jackettenor is biased, but from his point especially it sounds like this guy is just being a prick.
I mean let the kids have some fun, when bd's do things like this it discourages intrest in music from the students.

In my opinion, bd's should encourage music creation - not impede it.
Maybe if you wrote out all the parts and gave it to him he'd let you do it. Or if you don't have time, send me an mp3 - I'll transcribe it for you. Or, you could handwrite the cadence over the show music and then exclaim that you are just playing the second movement lol
don't do that... our tbone section got in trouble for that hehehe

i want to transcribe it but the bd wont even let me get a recording.Besides, since now we have "2" cadences (i think. i wasn't at percussion practice, I'm not allowed)I doubt he would accept it. He hasn't EVER accepted a cadence I gave him, and most likely and of the stands songs either.

Besides that, half the drumline *hates* me, especially the guy that wrote it. (He just mad cus I beat in a drum battle, of sorts)

I do agree with my bd to some extent, since half the drumline are (what's the politically correct way to say this) idiots. I think a couple of em need to be let go. One is one sarcastic bass-beating-during warmup away form being kicked.

I have a freind that goes to a school, where besides what the bd hands out, they make their own cadences, stands tunes, etc and almost the entire drumline broke their arms and the band made straight 1's.

edit- we have zero percussion staff. Our BD was a percussionist at Auburn University (that explains a lot) so he does everything. H eteaches highschool and begining band, while the [b]butt[/b]. bd teaches 7-8 grade

Well i do agree that the band director should care about the bands image, and the fact that he dosent want to have his drumline sounding bad on something that is an experiment.

but i dont agree with him not accepting any cadences from students...in my school, we do have a percussion director for the marching season, but every cadence weve ever played has been a student or section creation. this year being my senior year and that im head section leader i wrote all the cadences for this years show. and none of them were denied to be used.

oh just fyi to the mods, on my last post, i abreviated "assistant" wrong

i said a s s.

I understand where the BD is coming from, because thats the same exact problem with my line. Our show music is not clean, and they have no drive to clean it up, 95% of the time they don't follow the music anyway. Then the percussion like to go on creating cadences, If you want to call them that. I do believe my BD went on a rampage one day and yelled about creating "500 new beats, and he hasn't heard a cadence yet"

Then they get so worked up about getting this new cadence, they stop working on show music. Then they start trying to add visuals, then they think since the BD hasn't yelled that he is okay with it, and they are aloud to basically do what they want. Its funny how things fall into place like that, but thats how it works, I back your BD for that. If the percussionists really want to play said cadence, have them clean the show music, and have them meet a seperate time to do it. Band directors are thrilled when the percussion takes time to work as a section on their own time.

A lot of the times with the line is just hacking or just making stuff up or say there going to practice this "cadence" or lick or something I usually tell them no and to practice the show music cause its not as clean as it could be.

I mean I've seen bands who could destroy us as far as cadences and stands tunes but when it came to what mattered, the show, they were no contest.

However, I am just section leader...therefore I'm a student so every once in a while a couple of us will get together about an hour and a half before rehearsal and just let loose those creative juices.

My whole point with that statement was that the students may never truly know the director's intent behind his decision. How many times have you heard students "know more" and "know better" and OBVIOUSLY *wink* be more intelligent than a director?

Oh, I'm right with you on not knowing the director's purposes (and I always give the BD or other personel the benefit of the doubt).

I just don't think the 'Corps or instructional experience, or even a music degree, had much to do with the situation presented to us. Many people without such credentials can write a good cadence and many people *with* credentials can't. Nor do credentials help with knowing the band director's thoughts, though they may help with understanding them. So, in my mind it boiled down maintaining some discipline in rehearsal, practicing what they're *supposed* to be able to play, etc. rather than image or the quality of the cadence.

If the director isn't letting you work on your own cadences, is he giving you sheet music for a cadence he wants played? It is rather disappointing to hear a drumline march to taps alone. Most kids join so they can play a few cadences, so I would use cadence time as an incentive. If you meet the band director's goals at certain checkpoints then he should give you a little cadence time as an incentive. That's how I do it anyway.

Most of the time the kids write their cadences and they're usual in the category of "Phat Beatz." If your BD is really with it, hearing your drumline play something along those lines may indeed be infuriating. I'll never understand why some students are capable of playing somewhat intricate cadences and show music, while others can hardly play quarter notes on the beat!

So, ask yourself, where do you fall?

it really doesn't matter anymore this year. The drumline did somethin that made the director so mad, that he took away the cadences for the rest of the season. He gave us 2 cadences about 2 weeks ago. They have drumline-only afterschool om Monday until 4pm. Who knows what they'll be working on now besides show music and exercises.

If a quad player, a bass, and 1 cymbal player were kicked, it wouldn't be so much of a problem, and the director told me himself that a few of them weren't coming back, and yet they did, which make me questiom how reliable he is to his word. The 4th bass wasn't even supposed to be there last year, and yet he has been there since 8th grade.

My question is: What is your impression of a band that only marches to taps? Sure, he made their playing ability 1000x better, but why not let them have some fun doing it? If they are being so misbehaved, why not let some of them go, like you said spring of last year? Why would you let a drumline with more numbers than the brass not do anything of their own besides a couple of 1 bar drumbreaks?

Honestly, many of the parents, and several students, not to mention hundreds of non-band students, dislike the bd, and assistant bd. Half the 8th grade trumpet section quit, one baritone quit, several percussion quit, several clarinets and flutes quit, most because of the directors themselves. I can make a list of all the stupid, and quote, "po-dunk" stuff that they do.

I had a similar band director when I was in high school. He was old, bland personality, somewhat negative, not open to new ideas, a bit of a loner, if this sounds familiar let me know. Even though he and I strongly dislike each other, I can now see some of his points and decisions a little clearer, though I still disagree with his system and methods. I am in my senior year of college for Music Ed. and I must say it is a little different when you are in the position of your BD. And if you're from a typical high school, which most are, then you've got a drumline where people can't count (And I mean REALLY count), they have bad technique, there's no musicality etc. Sounding familiar?

To answer a few of your questions, your BD probably misspoke about the students who would not be returning to the drumline. Why? Because if he cut those people others would follow and/or you'd be missing some voices in the percussion section (drumline included). It's hard to say exactly but that's my best guess; it happens every year in band programs across the country.

My impression of a band marching to taps? In my high school years, "Those guys can't play." Today, "The band director made a honest judgment." The fact is your BD probably doesn't want other colleagues hearing a jumbled mess from the drumline. I hear it constantly and it does say a lot about a program and the BD. Or your BD is lazy and doesn't want to fool with it. That happen more than is should.

Now, ask yourself, honestly, is the drumline on it 90% or the time, or are there serious areas in which they seriously lack? If I were your BD and heard crap coming from the drumline, I'd cut the fun stuff and work on what really matters, your abilities. Can't count, we're gonna drill counting. Can't play a Paradiddle, we're gonna drill Paradiddles. Then, we'd work on cadences and "fun stuff" once we ironed out the problems.

Words can not express how much PecussionistBug just hit it on the head. Take care of the problems before you do the fun stuff.

On the point of the band director making people quit, now ask yourself is this nessicarily (I just butchered that, Sorry) a bad thing? By being how he is, who do you think quit the band? Not the kids who are dedicated, not the kids who only get in band for the credit, not the kids who are a virus on your band. The kids who don't care, who feel they know more then the BD, the kids who are overall not great to have in band quit. You may be friends with some of them, and you may feel I'm speaking against them, but think about it. What you have left are the kids who care about band, who want to be in band, who want to make the band better. And I would personally rather have a band of 25 kids that are all there because they want to be, then a band of 100 kids who are mostly lazy.

As for the drumline only marching to cadences, well, you have to do what you have to do. Sure you go out and get the funny looks, get laughed at about your drumline because the other kids jump spin and play a groove. But then what happens during showtime when the drumline marches forward and lays down a nasty lick that the other school could'nt even think of? Who's the bad player then?

They can play well, and our freshman snare is one of they they high school has seen in a few years, the center snare is the best drummer I know, and the second snare is good also. The second bass drummer is the best concert percussionist the school has. The fifth bass is mostly blind, and he is very good for a blind drummer.The freshman quad is a good snare player, just not good enough to make snare line. The sophmore quad, well, he is alright, he can play but he isn't that serious about it. He came from a show band (there's your sign.) The middle bass is a good bass drummer. He would be better behaved if some of the line wans't there. 4th bass... way too cocky, and gets way to much trouble. Most of the line wants him off, and so does the director. One of the cymbal players was kicked out last year, but the center snare game him one more chance. He doesn't do anything right, ever. The other cymbal player is dedicated, but it seems drumming really isnt his thing. He is a freshman, but not the best percussionist. The top bass I know nothing about because she just showed up at band camp.

As for counting, the entire bass line can count decently. The snares can count. I myself think they should try out for DCI. The quads can count too, but one being freshman, and other coming from a show band, and being to cocky and to undedicated, they both could be better.

The basses can run triplet 16th notes.


It is just a behavior problem, and only about 3 are the cause. It wouldn't be a problem if those 3 or 4 were not there. That would take away a quad, a bass, and a cymbal. We ar unbalanced as it is, being about 10 brass, and 12 percussion, they overpower the brass by a good margin. We would have pit, but our band is so underfunded, that we don't have any real pit equipment, but about 2 weeks ago we found a xylophone in a back room, and they bought a motto cart for it, and that would be all.

Also, he said he would rather march 5 dedicated people than 250 morons. If so, why doesn't he kick the 4 people off the drumline, the 1 trumpet, the one saxaphone? Because the band won't sound the same? Oh wait! I forgot after all the people's freind quit, that would leave: 1 tuba, 5 drumline, 3 trumpets, all the woodwinds would prolly stay, but it would leave 2-3 saxes, and the center snare said he would quit, thus our 5th bass would leave,and maybe the last snare, and then if the bd doesn't switch me to the drumline, then i would quit.

5 flutes
3 clarinets
2 saxephones
1 tube
1 trombone
1 baritone
3 trumpets
4 drumline, maybe

worst case scenario for this year. If he says he can use that, then lets see it. If we lose that many people that fast, then I imagine he would lose his job at my school. He said that it was his job to expand the program, not lessen the numbers.

Look at Gadsden City High School, 250 people in the band, and one if not the best sounding band in the state, they make some of their stuff AT THE GAMES! The school's band was formed from 2 show style, and one corps style band. I saw a lot of what could be morons at the game, yet they had one of the best first game performances I have ever seen, and many other people agree. They had great sound, great marching style, a decent show (i forgot what it was, but I saw a few bands do it last year.) They play good music in the stands, have at least 5 cadences, and the students like the band. look them up on youtube.

have at the rebuffing

Ok, let me say this for one, Most of the kids that claim they would quit, would not actually quit. Thats just dumb, It's like if my BD cleaned the crap out of my percussion section, Im friends with them all, but I'm not gonna quit because they screwed up and got kicked out. A lot of the kids are waving an empty threat around.

But heres the thing, if hes left with that many people that actually stayed around (saying your worst case scenario is true) that means they want to be there. The numbers wont be there, but the performance level will. And if a flute, clarinet, or saxophone stays, chances are your BD can coax them to switch into brass. Sure, you might lose one or two because they feel that "my flute is just as important as any of you brass or percussionists" (yes we actually had a flute tell us that)

But then, you start recruiting. Simply, lose kids, recruit some more. Let them know what they are getting into, let them know the kind of rewards they can get. Think of it this way, the less people there are, the more you can spend on individuals. Say your percussionists need stick bags, before you had to many people to buy them, not now, you don't need to buy as many drumheads, or as many reeds. Start coaxing and recruiting like that, you'll get some kids. Tell them about how fun it is, youll get kids, dont worry.

Things will all work out. And I have to ask, why would you quit? You already confessed to your band being idiots, if everyone left, why would you?

Just to put in my two cents. Our line plays a mix of 'phat beat' cadences written by previous lines, as well as more technically challenging pieces (the phantom regiment cadence 'picnic table', for instance) in order to learn already-written cadences, we practice them on our own and then rehearse them during drumline-specific rehearsal. As far as creating new material goes, it's usually just a way to blow off steam before of after a rehearsal. yesterday afternoon, for example, we jammed while getting over to the field a bit early. One person had come up with a tenor lick (we have one tenor), the basses created a unison beat on top of that, and I came up with something for us snares to play, which I shared with the other snares. Very quickly we had a simple but enjoyable tune, because we didn't hack try to do an over the top 'freestyle'. We came up with and coherently played some music, and I don't think anyone can argue against that. Now should this get in the way of rehearsal? Absolutely not. Like I said this was just a way of blowing off steam, and if it had detracted or distracted from productive rehearsal time, that would be unacceptable. But tacking on some nonrigid (but still musically disciplined) time is undoubtedly good for individual players, and the line as a whole.

I watched a few clips of the band. Did you notice they're barely moving, compared to a small band? There marching was very simple. That usually means more demanding music, so it's only naural they have several cadence. I've heard a lot of Corps march on or off the field to taps and no one complains about that. Trust me, if you think you've got a bad situation with your band, you've probably never seen a band with REAL problems.

Politics and band don't mix well, so just work with what you've got. If you work hard you will eventually weed out the weaker players and then the band will get better, or they'll step up their game. It will take a few year, but I've seen it happen before and your situation doesn't sound that different from a typical band.

Just FYI, marching onto the field and off to taps is fine, but it is awkward going into the stadium to taps

At competitions, Tennessee lines routinely march in and out of the stadium to taps.

Football games however are a completely different story. Personally, the only time I remember marching into a football game to taps is when our cadence sounded like crap and the director told us not to play it.

let me clarify. I meant into stadium for football games. I myself would personally like tapping in and out at competition because of the judges. There, ususally besides our director, is never and type of "official" judge at my school. My school is the only school I have ever seen tapping through the entire game, except halftime music. Just feels odd not doin our little horn visuals and at a carry goin to pregame, or into the opposing stadium. Guess I'll just have to wait til next year

Secondly: yet another reason to kick the 4th bass and cymbal player; They got into a fight in the courtyard. I doubt the director knows about it, and if he does, I haven't heard anything about it. I may go into the bandroom Monday moring and show the video (someone on the drumline sent it to my on my cell phone) to him. I heard them talk about it at practice, but it has always been fake, so, I didn't comment.

Again, this is an example of the politics I was talking about earlier. That stuff has no place in a band situation. You're much better off making the best of this season and working toward eliminating current problems for next season.

Example: I'm working with a drumline full of non-drummers. All of them can't count. It bothers me when quarter notes are missed, or the beat gets turned around. If it were my band I wouldn't have drummers who couldn't count. Why? Because I would teach them how to count.

Try working with the people on the line instead of worrying about who deserves to be there. Fact is, they're there so you might as well make as much progress as your situation will allow and move things more toward the ideal for next season.

UPDATE:

I saw the snares and tenors play that cadence they made at band camp. they played it on the rims and it was C L E A N. Also, the cadence at the end of Drumline (i have notin to do wit it.) is clean. They can't play either without sheet music. The drum captain asked that I give them the sheet musc (Im goin to.) Also, I want to see if I can video tape or record the other cadence so I can make sheet music for it.

Our BD is way more chill about cadences, i sure as hell dont have a music degree, but i know how to throw notes together to make pretty noises. i wrote / arranged all of our cadences and my BD was fine with it, although we do get introuble for playing without permission al the time, but we love drumming, and were probably going to get focal dystonia from it but who cares, express yourself with your music, its all i got cuz i cant write great poetry or sculpt or anything like that. music is a great way of self expression and whether your BD says to write or not, is he really going to punish you for being vretive? no he's punishing himself when he finds out youre the next Roger Carter. This was more of a rant that a "quality post" but i think ive made somewhat of a point