I have a few questions. First of all: Ya know how Jeff Queen has amazing chops and can play all kinds of crazy hybrid rudiments as can many other Corps style snare drummers? Well, I was wondering if any Show style snare drummers use cheeses and hybrids and stuff and I was also wondering if there are any show style snare drummers that have crazy chops like Jeff Queen or someone like that.

We played a local showband at last nights football game. They were really cranking. It was rudimental blended very well with show-style.

Who's the guy who played for Nick Cannon in the the movie? Seemed to me like he had some pretty good chops.

I've seen some show lines play what seems like a nonstop singles pattern for literally like 10 straight minutes while the dance team does their thing. That takes quite a bit of chops if you ask me.

Last night we had a show style band at our game and they were ok. I think they don't have chops like jeff queen or somewhat, last night I notice that their snares are tune low somewhat like a concert snare so they can sound all the same and clean but if they really tune the snares up they won't sound that good and clean... the whole band doesn't sound good...thats just me

I'm sure there are some showband drummers with some chops. But showbands aren't really about chops. Its about the show (hence the name ). The audience isn't going to notice the snareline playing their inverted cheese patterns or their tasty cake ho-ho's. They will however notice stick flipping and body visuals and what have you. If the movie Drumline was about drumcorp, it would have done horribly. There's nothing in a drumcorp that can really keep someone who's not familiar with the activity entertained. They'd sit there and say, "Oh wow...they're playing drums. Are those guns that they're throwing in the air?" You know how people are. When they see hybrids, they don't know if its hard or not. But as soon as you throw a backstick in, they'll go nuts. That's what showbands are looking for.

mmmmmmm... ho ho's.....

The answer to your question is fish-pudding!
There are showstyle lines who do put in cheeses and many hybrids, but like kevin touched on, that is not indicative of a line with chops. Chops is the ability to play excessively and still maintain balance, control and precision all while playing with the rest of the line.

As for the question about any showstyle drummers as good as Jeff Queen. Are there ANY drummers out there as good as Jeff Queen

the answer to that question is yes their are some showband drummers who have chops like jeff queen (like hes god smh..... whatever)you must not have seen any of the collegiate lines .if you were to look at the lines in any well know percussion section or good one for that matter you would know that we all incorporate hybrids into our playing .i mean what true snare player wouldnt its how you get better .you guys make it seem like we are iliterate to the intire world of percussion .its sad and you call yourselves percussionist....yeah wat ever.

and to bootsinating you arer a fool to think that showbands are all about looking good stick flipping and booty shaking we actually care how we sound .. and for anyone else who thinks that we are just a booty band and your in the richmond area come hit me up so i can show you what the deal is .. you wouldnt last an hour in my line or on the field for that matter ..we are called show band because WE PUT ON A SHOW FOR EVERY ONE NOT JUST THE MUSICALLY INCLINED.
we take all walks of people not just those who are tremendous players and can dance if we did that we would make it seem like we were discriminating against people and and make it no fun .

and to the kid who said they tune their drum low to all sound alike and clean have you ever though that they were clean and if they they were clean on the broken eupiment they would also be even better on good equipment .

you gotta live on both sides of the road to explain the truth (and i dont mean what you think you know neither) .......
oh yah hopefully ill get the chance to post some clips of a hot section battle so you guys can stop acting like we are the underlife of the music world...

No one, and I repeat no one was talking down on showstyle in this thread. Lets not pick fights.

sorry guy but if...
But showbands aren't really about chops. Its about the show (hence the name ). or"I was wondering if any Show style snare drummers use cheeses and hybrids and stuff and I was also wondering if there are any show style snare drummers that have crazy chops " or this topic for that matter " i was just stating the facts from a real showband percussionist not saying what i think i knew .no harm intended.he asked i gave him the correct answer and a detailed one at that . and the answer is .....
yes there are some drummers in showstyle who have chops like jeff queen ... boooooooooo ralph hardimon all the way
if that aint a put down wat is

Orangecrush, you have a serious double standard going on here. In the thread you started, you are trying to get everyone to have a civil and informative discussion, but in this thread you are bashing everyone including Jeff Queen...oh, and no he isn't god, but in the rudimental snare drumming world...he's close.

Anyway, obviously some people on this forum have misconceptions about show-style bands and as long as they are not exposed to the style, it will continue to happen. I think it works both ways though...show-style people have misconceptions about corps-style. Let me point out a few. Apparently, corps-style groups only play music that appeals to a musically inclined audience. At least that is what you implied above. That is definitely not true. Show-style groups that I have seen (note that last phrase) tend to play more of the recent and popular music than corps-style groups. Is this wrong....of course not, just different. However, that doesn't mean the music corps-style groups do not play music that appeals to a general audience. I know plenty of non-musicians who enjoy DCI for example.

Finally, you have no idea if anyone (unless you have met them in person) could hang in your line, or do you have any idea if you could hang in a corps-style line. That is an impossible comparison to make and a statement that has no answer.

Nice touch Barry. I agree 100%. There are alot a lot of talented individuals marching and teaching on both sides of the community. I think that if a corps style staff got together with a show style staff that they could learn alot a lot from each other. In fact I would like to march in a show style band just for the experience that is different from the norm.
Orange crush:
Chill my man. Some of us are percussionist or aspiring percussionists others of us are just playing drums and having fun. Be cool my man. Most of us have not been exposed to Show style in an up close and personal way that most of us have been exposed to corps style. Please do not tryo to start any fights because honestly no one is going to cry themselves to sleep over anything on this forum(unless DLO goes down then I might cry a little). If you try to be angry here people will just turn off to any point you may have had. You also risk one of our many patient MODS closing the thread.

to left snare
i dont intend to hurt anyone's feeling but if i have i apologize .
i feel any one who calls himeself a true percussionist is able to appreciate any style of play without any type of bias. and to have them and call yourself a percussionist makes you a fool.and yes the show band world is much competitive along with cockiness.

drumholio
well yes i did bash jeff queen because to me he is great but not merley a god of snare or rudimental drumming for that matter . he is goood and ive seen numerous videos of him (not just on vicfirth.com either)i marveled at what i he dose with a pair of sticks but why would i marvle at someone that with a little practice and experience i can be like or even better ? it makes no since to me .

yes i beleive many people cant hang with my line because of the expectations i set for them . Right now i have a set of 5 new snare drummers im training for the up and coming game i give a 5 reg. rudiments and 3 hybrids a week they must learn to play in order to play in the game .they also have to learn the field manuevers ,all the music by heart and clean must we say clean i wont let them march if it aint clean.(dont care if i have dont have any snares)every note counts i tell them .and all this befor they can even think of dancing one beat or even see a visual . so when all this is acheived they have to be able to play CLEAN and dance along with adding visuals probably wont add those till the can dance and play clean.
(now note ive had guys from colleges say that i do what they do in college and more ) ima drill sergant to them i know its hard on my line .

i dont mean to sound angry but i do get quite peturbed when i read alot a lot of crap being said about how show bands this and show bands that . so shoot me if im wrong to have a weird way of saying things im different . and my ideas will be wats the new wave of band and music .

Showbands are there to get the crowd hype and dont give an hoot about rudiments and flippy cheese flapper doodle crap.

killa quints you have no idea what a real show band or show band percussion section sounds like ,and for you to say that our "ONLY" purpose is to entertain is dead wrong.we don't all want to look like total idiots when it comes to the real world of percussion as a whole .you say we don't care about rudiments ? what kind of drummer doesn't .i don't care what your style of play is if you don't care about the fundamentals of playing your instrument you are a total misfit in your section or any self respecting section for that matter and should be put to death .(that last part was a joke) .we showbands are large competitors that's one reason for our flashy look . we can entertain any of our crowds just by playing what they want to hear and not dance they wont care . one of our largest competitors believe it or not are corps they possess some things we don't have , so to stay in some kind of place we have to do what they do and more ...

not to say your a total loss cause but , you need to quickly learn about the show style bands and what we do ; and if your saying that you are in one you need to look into reconsidering what you say about yourself and how it looks to make all of us look bad .

so good day sir and hopefully you will soon be enlightened by my words because we are brothers in the style

You guys can't even agree on what a showband should be and you're both in one. How do you expect people who have little or no experience with showbands to figure out what a showband program's goals are when you can't even agree?

honestly i have no idea .......thats a good question .
but i will say this, he has many years to figure out what it is to be a real showband drummer or, a true percussionist for that matter . his words are from inexperience and maybe bad teaching. so, im just here to set the record staight for any and all who need help. not to pick a fight or anything but he is speaking from a younger point of view where someone in showband is not being educated well enough to know what the importants of alot a lot of things are .so in closing i think you should just close the thread and help him to realize what it means to be a true percussionist .
thanks for reading.
ps. killaquints you should really fill out that personal info in your bio it would really help to know where you come from or if ive heard of you so i can figure out what type of show band style you play .

Are you saying that MAM should close my post? I just wanted to learn about Show Style snare players. I have no idea about their warmups or exercises. For example, do you guys ever play snare Sprees or something like that? I was hoping for some kind of example of something you use hybrids in. Or when you solo, do you use all the crazy rudiments that are in the solos of Jeff Queen and other various Corps style soloists? I was just using Jeff Queen as an example. And I'm still confused as to why you don't see Jeff as the Chop Master that he is. I've seen him play in person, and it was just warmups and exercises and I was still just blown away by how much control and strength he has over the sticks.

well to answer your question yes .i did imply that the thread should be locked now if you where to ask again i would say yes .(its my opinion )
1. yes, like ive said on many ocassion yes we do actually use hybrids in our cadences . i've just written a cadence where in the first couple of lines there's a lick with a charlie muphy, triplestroke roll ,irish five , cheese chain a flam tap,and some swiss army triplets . in many good lines like norfolk state ,virginia state , prairie view A&M, albany state university.ect. and on the high school level the national champs brooklyn steppers , hugenot high school , highland springs high ,henrico high school ect.you will find this sort of thing as normal .and if you look at some southern lines ,that high sticking that they do as a visual is quite hard to do while playin some of these advanced rudiments and although it looks wild to see it takes alot a lot of endurance and strength to keep up .(chops that is)

2.well as for the jeff queen thing ive seen him play on alot a lot of tapes people have of him bbefor and after shows and yeah im impressed but to me he is another guy .(*stick flips, back sticking ,one hand rolls ,walk the dog ) now if jeff queen was the age of 19 and playing at the level he is now i would be overly impressed .hes been taught by some of the greats so why wouldn't he be that good .not mention that he has so much experince in what he dose . all i got to say is if you would have seen some of the things ive seen you would just see him as one of the crowd .(and ive seen some stuff just by watching alumni from different lines play ).

now if you are as enthusiastic as he was in his younger years and all you did was study and practice and stuck to it within two years you will understand that all it has to with is practice,practice,practice and what he is doing is easier than it looks . even he says that it takes practice so why not take his advice and be better than he is .then we will be having this convo.about you and not him .yeah hes great but hes not god . im not going to knock him for his skills but im not going to try to be in his shadow or cult following just so i can be another one of his flunkies(not saying you are). and by you idolizing one person you sometimes cloud your mind being that your soooooooo into what hes doing a not what your doing .i like himm for what he brings to the table and im not goin to say im better but im no tgoin to put him on a pedistal either .what abotu those guys who are better or just like him we dont see anyone else put out there like that .or maybe your not looking.

so if you still want to say something say it i wont answer.
but if you wanna talk im me or something .

im not in a show band, however i like next to North Carolina A&T and to me they are the best showband...Plus i have plenty of oldheads from my high school line playing there so it may influence my view. Also I personally practice rudiments because in my opinion its a good way to build up confidence. The other high schools we play include Dudley, Smith, and Andrews which all three have showbands and all three have friends of mine on them. Maybe my opinion is altered in some way because im white and like showbands because i think it is more entertaining. I wont be playing in one in college because in my opinion it isnt as much of a technical challenge as some other schools would be.
PS out warmup starts with 2 eights on a hand then singles at the same pace for 28 hits then we speed the singles up twice as fast for 28 hits. Switch to slow doubles, then speed them up, then speed them up and add in an accent them as if they are triplets(easier to show than tell) Its like you count 1 2 3 while doing doubles and accent on the 1. Then it switches to paradiddles then faster paradiddles, then double paradiddles, then it winds down with a few flam taps and gets quiteter til it fades out. (Ill send a audio clip of me doing it when i get the chance)

Orangecrush2, can you please name some of the people that you have seen that makes Jeff Queen just one of the crowd...maybe we have heard of them. Oh, and for the record Jeff Queen was playing in a top 12 DCI line at the age of FIFTEEN, so actually he was that good at 19. You were probably to young to know about it at the time.

Next, Jeff Queen is an example. No one is talking a cult following (as you put it). There are other people we could have used as an example, but just about everyone knows who Queen is, so he was used. If you want other names...how about Nick Angelis, Pat Fitzgibbon, Mike McIntosh, Mickey Burmer, and Tyler Dempsey. I could go on, put that should cover it.

Finally, I think you are taking this a little too far. No one is idolizing anyone here....it is called admiring. We can do that and not be a flunky. It happens all the time. Also, there are very few drummers that are on the playing level of Mr. Queen. Honestly, calling him a god in the world of drumming is not really a stretch. If you took a poll of the best rudimental snare drummers of the last 20 years...his name would be top 5 at least. Oh, and there is nothing wrong with putting someone on a pedastal as you long as you are trying to climb that pedastal to get to that level (or as close as possible).

I've have very limited exposoure to show-style marching band because I live on the west coast. So, with that in mind I don't want to steryotype the genre. But, when I was in highschool, I had an instructor for a year and a half to marched in a show band. And unfortunetly I learned a lot of terrible stuff from him. Now a days I'm working very hard to unlearn the stuff he taught me (for example, he taught me to flip my middle fingure from my left hand off the stick when playing trad. As I've gotten better (not only at snare drumming, but drumset and other percussion insturments) I find this technique to be more harm than help. And in general I just find his approach very inefficient.

Now here's my question. It is possible that my insturctor just sucked. Or, are the differences in the way he plays and the way I want to play just a difference of goals? Is he going for a different sound than I am and that's why we play differently? Someone who plays in a show band could enlighten me. Is it standard for your middle fingure on your left hand to be off of the stick?

well i alot a lot of the band i know play with their wrist not their fingers ,and the thing about sticking up your middle finger is something to give you a very good example/visual of how to get close to what he wants .thats they way i was tough in the begining when i started but i eventually got used to it and after watching the pros play and mimicing them i evolved into the way i play now wich is the actual correct way to play (it took me 2 months to achive but hey i got there).

ok we have quite a few of showbands here in the dfw area..mostly like downtown dallas..I live in tx near dallas and like some high schools are just completely horrid...well to me and my lines taste..the were cocky,undisciplined,bad over all.....they knew some rudiments but to a certain extent..there main purpose was to show off....and they didn't think it was impressive. Now, don't get me wrong this isn't my view on shownand drummers as a whole this is my view on drummers from my area...we also had a snare drummer(that had showband experience) come to our school..he knew nothing and came down on us like he was a drum god...which jeff queen is pretty freakin' close...but to close what I think my view on showband drummers is a very bad one and maybe you might clear this up...these experiences have not come from only one incident it was also like 4 or 5 times that I have experienced a showband drummer...hopefully you can clear this up for me.

I HAVE SOME PRETTY GOOD PLAYERS IN MY LINE THERE CHOPS ARE VERY GOOD. MY LINE IS FOCUSING ON THEIR RUDIMENTAL CHOPS WHICH IS GOING TO SEPARATE AND MAKE US BETTER THAN ANY SHOWSTYLE BAND.

That's awesome man...I'm diggin' the fact you're hypin' your line...I saw the mpeg...I thought it was great stuff...I'm diggin what you guys are doing...you should be proud to show them off...I know I would...It's great stuff man...

chill out on the CAPS...


Enjoy...

Thanx

no...thank you. I hope everyone here can appreciate that mpeg as much as I did...

Thanx for the complement!!!
to answer your question we do use our more advanced players on snare and quints. But as time moves on the others do advance to the more difficult sections from hard to easy for us is
cymbals

Edited double-post

oh sorry your other question...
being that show style beats doesn't take to much chops(playing skills) we do use a lot of corp style exrcises it builds our chops for the rudimental stuff and endurance for the show style
tenor
bass
quint
snare

I apologize i didn't that center snare thing till just now but since you explained it i guess we don't. Our section leader or captain i think you call it and the second in command stands on each end. this became natural to us because we use to do alot a lot of parades and we put them there to keep the lines straight

pv will hang with the blue devils......i know a couple of folks on line that can probably smoke some of the bds line.........people in showstyle have just as much chops as corp style bands....

WARNING: Reading this post will lower your IQ.

let me tell yall something about showstyle drumlines my boy kevin lee section leader at tsu(in Houston) got some mad crazy poop yall aint never seen well anyways show style is about getting crowd and battking see whoes the best our drumline in houston at raul yzagurrie are tied up with chavez high for best latino drumline on the southeast area yall corp style drumline aint poop yall walk boring.

I am in no way, shape, or form trying to barge in on this but I need to place my .02 on this. Do I think that Showstlye lines suck? No, just I'm not a fan of the stuff they try to pull off. Now, on the other hand. Do I think that some showstyle lines could smoke a DCI line? I seriously Doubt it, but it may happen. Now, as far as the whole marching approach, I'd like to see a showstyle band do half the stuff that the top 12 DCI corps pull off... most of the time I only see elevator drill or just boring stuff. The whole thing that attracts 3/4 of the percussionists into DCI is the chops. However, some of the drill is just as impressive as the music itself. People wish to think they are better than DCI/WGI/PASIC Snare winners? I'd actually like to see a drum off between a few of these guys on showstly snarelines and the most known rudimental Snare Drummers (Queen, Angelis, Scott Johnson, Roger Carter, Pat Fitzgibbon, heck even Scott McCoy (Hulka)) Most likely people will prefer the sweet beats and visuals of those guys than the stuff of a showstyle line. Also, I hate doing this but, learn to use correct spelling, please?

I don't think its fair to compare a school's line to a corps unless you are comparig DCI to WGI (i.e. Devs to RCC).
I only say this because of the amount of practice that is involved in one of these lines.I believe chops come from the individual, not the style they march,but you are likely to see some of the choppy stuff in corps style. I say this because it seems like corps style groups throw harder things into the actual show. Now because most showstyle groups don't do this, the chops they may actually possess are never seen/heard. But in my years of performing with showstyle groups I have never come across anyone as sick as Queen or any of the big names in drum corps.

drmmrboi6, what you're overlooking is that a lot of the better college players also march drum corps.

i am not trying to butt in but i have lived in north carolina and now in OK and i have seen my share of both styles. i think show bands are awesome and very fun to watch and some of the licks are pretty impressive. but persoally i like the core style i like the drill much better and i think the drumming ,though it may not be a "fun and bouncing" beat, is very impressive and awesome to watch.
and in no way am i trying to rag on show bands. half of the stuff they do is awesome also to watch and not all show bnds have bad drill it is just some of the show bands that i have seen in the past. i would not mind marching a show band just to see and lean what band is like from their point of view.
(this is just my opinion)

(*_*)

im a drummer looking to go into srum corps next summer. i auditioned at a show style band and it was heavily rudimentary drumming. i was grilled. i still made a perfect score on my audition though. i dont know about other show style bands but mine is rudiments rudiments rudiments, and some hybrids!!! p.s. i came from a corps still band in h.s.

Wow. Did more than half of this thread turn into another show style vs. corps style? Heh...

*re-reads the first post*

I personally HAVE seen some amazing show style snare players. In fact, a couple of them have tried out for cavies a couple times but barely fell out (some due to money issues).

Think of it this way: show style drummers aren't there just for the crowd - they're there because they like to do what they do and nothing more.

Proper instruction is the KEY aspect of snare chops. In a Drum Corps you are usually going to get excellent instruction. That is because the instructor IS a drummer. In the typical band some sax, trumpet, or tuba playing Band Director who actually and DANGEROUSLY believes that he can TEACH percussion will most likely misteach all sorts of wierd and totally incorrect concepts. That's why after teaching history and being the Drum instructor at my High School for 17 years and 7 Band Directors, I finally started a Drum Corps for our Navy JROTC. Should have done it long ago. The band switched to show syle and were more interested in dancing and visual tricks than in the HARD AND LONG ROAD to rudimental excellence. I marched with the Marine Drum Corps in Wash. DC 1975-79